(商业广告时间)
美国广播公司“本周”节目主持人玛莎·拉达茨:在巴基斯坦，美国几十年来第一次与伊朗面对面，但是没有达成结束战争的协议就离开了。来自伊斯兰堡和华盛顿的“本周”特别版现在开始。
(开始视频剪辑)
拉达兹:没有交易。
美国副总统J.D .万斯:我们回到美国时还没有达成协议。
雷达兹:在马拉松式的谈判会议之后，副总统万斯离开了与伊朗的和平谈判，拒绝对美国的要求做出承诺。
万斯:简单的事实是，我们需要看到他们不寻求核武器的明确承诺。
RADDATZ:特朗普总统淡化结束战争的努力。
唐纳德·特朗普，美国总统:我们是否达成协议对我来说没有区别。
RADDATZ:随着美国船只自战争开始以来第一次进入霍尔木兹海峡，海军驱逐舰开始在关键的石油通道进行扫雷行动。那么，摇摇欲坠的两周停火如何维持？结束战争的下一步是什么？我将与共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊和民主党参议员蒂姆·凯恩交谈。
另外，前中央司令部司令约瑟夫·沃特尔介绍了美国迄今为止取得的成就。
惊喜声明。
梅拉尼娅·特朗普，第一夫人:把我和可耻的杰弗里·爱泼斯坦联系在一起的谎言必须在今天结束。
拉达兹:我们将报道本周所有的政治。前众议院议长·凯文·麦卡锡加入我们的圆桌会议。
和
不知名男性:作为人类是一件特别的事情。在地球上是一件特别的事情。
拉德达茨:阿尔特弥斯二号机组人员在完成历史性的绕月十天任务后溅落到地球。
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播音员:来自ABC新闻，这是“本周”的特别节目给你，玛莎·拉达兹。
早上好，欢迎来到“本周”
我们今天早上在巴基斯坦伊斯兰堡报道，副总统万斯刚刚结束了与伊朗的马拉松式和平谈判，没有达成结束战争的协议，现在已经进入第七周。在巴基斯坦的调解下，与伊朗进行了21个小时的通宵闭门谈判后，副总统出面表示，各方未能达成协议，称伊朗不愿做出不寻求核武器的坚定承诺。
随后，美国代表团将返回华盛顿，本周宣布的为期两周的脆弱停火将面临考验。我们将在这里和华盛顿报道最新消息。但是我们从会谈的状态和接下来的冲突开始。
(开始录像)
美国副总统万斯(J.D. VANCE):坏消息是我们没有达成协议。
RADDATZ(画外音):今天早上，由于美国和伊朗未能就伊朗战争达成永久解决方案，会谈没有取得突破。
万斯:我认为这对伊朗来说是个坏消息，比对美国来说更坏。我们已经非常清楚我们的红线是什么，我们愿意在哪些事情上迁就他们，我们不愿意在哪些事情上迁就他们。我们已经尽可能清楚地表明了这一点。他们选择不接受我们的条件。
RADDATZ(画外音):双方闭门会议了21个小时，一直工作到深夜才找到解决方案，但没有取得任何进展。
万斯:总统告诉我们，你们需要带着诚意来到这里，尽最大努力达成协议。我们做到了。不幸的是，我们没能取得任何进展。
RADDATZ(画外音):伊朗的核野心仍然是一个关键的症结所在。
万斯:简单的事实是，我们需要看到一个明确的承诺，即他们不会寻求核武器，也不会寻求能使他们迅速获得核武器的工具。
RADDATZ(画外音):伊朗议会议长兼首席谈判代表表示，“在本轮谈判中，对方最终未能获得伊朗代表团的信任。美国已经理解了我们的逻辑和原则，现在是它决定是否能赢得我们信任的时候了。”
万斯副总统在离开伊斯兰堡时重申了美国的立场。
万斯:我们带着一个非常简单的提议离开这里。一种理解的方法，这是我们最终和最好的提议。我们将看看伊朗人是否会接受。
RADDATZ(画外音):马拉松式的谈判即将结束。川普总统周六与国务卿马尔科·卢比奥一起参加了终极格斗锦标赛，并驳回了这一努力。
唐纳德·特朗普，美国总统:我们是否达成协议对我来说没有区别。
RADDATZ(画外音):由巴基斯坦斡旋的三方努力是美国和伊朗47年来最高级别的面对面会谈。
谈判的破裂使脆弱的关系雪上加霜
'This Week' Transcript 4-12-26: Sen. Ron Johnson, Sen. Tim Kaine & Gen. Joseph Votel
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: Here in Pakistan, the U.S. meets face to face with Iran for the first time in decades, but walks away without a deal to end the war. A special edition of “THIS WEEK” from Islamabad and Washington starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: No deal.
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:We go back to the United States having not come to an agreement.
RADDATZ: After a marathon negotiating session, Vice President Vance leaves peace talks with Iran refusing to commit to U.S. demands.
VANCE: The simple fact is that we need to see an affirmative commitment that they will not seek a nuclear weapon.
RADDATZ: President Trump downplays the efforts to end the war.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me.
RADDATZ: As U.S. ships enter the Strait of Hormuz for the first time since the war began, Navy destroyers starting mine clearing operations in the critical oil passageway. So, how can the shaky two-week ceasefire hold? What comes next on the path to end the war? I’ll speak with GOP Senator Ron Johnson and Democratic Senator Tim Kaine.
Plus, former CENTCOM Commander Joseph Votel on what the U.S. has achieved so far.
Surprise statement.
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY: The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today.
RADDATZ: We’ll cover all the week's politics. And former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy joins our roundtable.
And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It’s a special thing to be a human. And it’s a special thing to be on planet earth.
RADDATZ: The Artemis II crew splashes down to earth after a historic ten-day mission around the moon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, a special edition of “THIS WEEK.” Here now, Martha Raddatz.
RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to “THIS WEEK.”
We are reporting this morning from Islamabad, Pakistan, where Vice President Vance has just wrapped up marathon peace talks with Iran with no deal to end the war, now entering its seventh week. After 21 hours of overnight closed-door negotiations with Iran, mediated by Pakistan, the vice president emerged to say that the parties had failed to reach an agreement, saying Iran was unwilling to make a firm commitment on not seeking nuclear weapons.
And with that, the U.S. delegation heads back to Washington and a fragile two-week ceasefire announced this week will now be put to the test. We will cover the very latest, both here and in Washington. But we begin with the state of the talks and what comes next in this conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The bad news is that we have not reached an agreement.
RADDATZ (voice over): This morning, no breakthrough in talks as the U.S. and Iran fail to hammer out a permanent resolution to the war in Iran.
VANCE: And I think that’s bad news for Iran, much more than it’s bad news for the United States of America. We’ve made it very clear what our red lines are, what things we’re willing to accommodate them on, and what things we’re not willing to accommodate them on. And we’ve made that as clear as we possibly could. And they have chosen not to accept our terms.
RADDATZ (voice over): The two sides meeting behind closed doors for 21 hours, working well into the night to find a resolution but yielding no progress.
VANCE: The president told us, you need to come here in good faith and make your best effort to get a deal. We did that. And, unfortunately, we weren’t able to make -- make any headway.
RADDATZ (voice over): Iran’s nuclear ambitions remaining a key sticking point.
VANCE: The simple fact is that we need to see an affirmative commitment that they will not seek a nuclear weapon, and they will not seek the tools that would enable them to quickly achieve a nuclear weapon.
RADDATZ (voice over): With Iran’s speaker of the parliament and lead negotiator posting that, “the opposing side ultimately failed to gain the trust of the Iranian delegation in this round of negotiations. America has understood our logic and principles, and now it’s time for it to decide whether it can earn our trust or not.”
Vice President Vance reaffirming the United States’ position as he left Islamabad.
VANCE: We leave here with a very simple proposal. A method of understanding that is our final and best offer. We’ll see if the Iranians accept it.
RADDATZ (voice over): As the marathon negotiations were wrapping. President Trump attending a UFC fight in Miami with Secretary of State Marco Rubio and dismissing the effort Saturday.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me.
RADDATZ (voice over): The trilateral effort, mediated by Pakistan, was the highest level face to face meetings between the United States and Iran in 47 years.
The breakdown in talks now putting the fragile temporary two-week truce agreed upon late Tuesday to the test, with differences in those agreed upon terms emerging throughout the week. The administration claiming Iran had agreed to open the Strait of Hormuz. President Trump posting on social media Saturday that the U.S. is “now starting the process of clearing out the Strait of Hormuz as a favor to countries all over the world.” The Pentagon said two Navy destroyers were clearing mines.
In the days since the announced agreement, few ships have crossed the passage, which remains under Iranian control. And on the key sticking point of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth insisting this week the U.S. will secure Iran’s enriched nuclear material.
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We know exactly what they have, and they know that. And they will either give it to us, which the president has laid out, we’ll -- they’ll give it to us voluntarily, we’ll get it, we’ll take it, we’ll take it out.
RADDATZ (voice over): The temporary truce came under immense pressure just before Tuesday night’s deadline to Iran. Trump stunningly said, “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. I don’t want that to happen, but it probably will.”
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ (on camera): A lot to discuss.
I'm joined now by GOP Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin.
Good morning to you, Senator.
You have been a supporter of this war. But after 21 hours of really historic negotiations, there was no deal cut. And it’s basically, according to J.D. Vance, take it or leave it. What’s your reaction?
SEN. RON JOHNSON, (R) WISCONSIN: Well, good morning, Martha.
Well, first of all, I'm not supportive of the war with Iran, but that’s because Iran declared war on America 47 years ago. They have blood on their -- on their hands of American soldiers, of hundreds, probably thousands of them. But it’s the ayatollahs, it’s the regime that declared war on America. Not the Iranian people. So, we’re not at war with the Iranian people. We’re trying to end the state-sponsored terrorism. We’re trying to end the threat, the menace that Iran represents, not only to America but to world security and peace.
So, I'm supporting of -- I'm supportive of ending the Iranian regime’s ability to threaten world peace and security.
RADDATZ: And what’s your reaction to what happened here in Islamabad with no deal? What do you think happens now?
JOHNSON: I'm not surprised at all. The ayatollahs, even though they have been, you know, so degraded in terms of their capabilities, nobody thought this would be easy. They’ve been preparing for this for 47 years. They have multiple layers. They’ve got 200,000 people in the IRGC, 600,000 people in the Basij police force. They are brutal.
By the way, this is exactly what nationwide gun control results in. The Iranian people are completely disarmed. It’s going to be very difficult for them to rise up. So, it’s a very difficult situation.
Now, I hope -- I hope that President Trump is successful in this because if we could -- just imagine the world if the ayatollah’s -- the brutal Iranian regime is no longer in power. That’s what we’re trying to achieve.
RADDATZ: The president was at a UFC fight in Florida with Marco Rubio during the negotiations. He was getting updates. But earlier in the day, he said, “Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me. And the reason is, because we’ve won.”
It makes no difference?
JOHNSON: Well, first of all, we will not have won until we have completely defanged the Iranian regime. We’ve got -- we have to make sure -- and I thought it was very interesting in President Trump’s address to the nation when he spoke to the families at Dover how -- apparently to a person they said, finish the job. And to me, finishing the job is to make sure that Iran can never produce a nuclear weapon, they can no longer enrich uranium, that hopefully we can remove that enriched uranium, that they can no longer hold the, you know, the Strait of Hormuz hostage, that they can no longer brutalize the Iranian people, they can no longer be a sponsor of state terror.
So, we have to -- we have to finish the job. Again, there’s multiple ways of potentially doing it. Short term, long term there are multiple avenues we can approach here. But the -- we have not yet finished the job.
RADDATZ: Meanwhile, we have 50,000 troops in harm’s way right now. We have Gulf allies in harm’s way. We have gas prices spiking. Oil barrels -- the price raised there.
President Trump was asked about people who are not fans of the war, asked specifically, what do you say to Americans who are not fans of the war. And he said, “They’re foolish because the war is about one thing, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.”
So, what would you say to those Americans who are sitting at home, seeing those 50,000 troops in harm’s way, seeing gas prices spike, and listening to you saying how complicated this could be and that it could continue for a long time?
JOHNSON:Well, first of all, it’s a good answer. That’s exactly the reason why we have to make sure the Iranian -- the Iranian regime is ended. You know, whether it’s President Obama, President Biden, President Trump, they all said, we can never allow Iran to become a nuclear power.
The problem with what President Obama and Biden did they coddled the regime, they funneled billions of dollars, strengthened the regime, allowed them to sponsor state terror, allowed them to continue enriching uranium. And at some point in time, we had to act before we couldn’t, before Iran became a nuclear power, before they had so many missiles and so many drones that this kind of action would have devastated the region. It’s already done enough damage.
So, no, I know it’s a tough decision for President Trump because he knew it wouldn’t be easy. And it’s not easy. And it could be longer term here.
But I don’t believe it’s going to require boots on the ground. You know, potentially assets to help the Iranian people, other people eventually completely destroy the regime.
But let’s face it, this regime is incredibly weakened. You know, all their bold statements reminds me of Baghdad Bob. You know, they are not in a position of strength right now.
And we also have to make sure that China and Russia no longer help Iran. I heard a very disturbing report that apparently China’s going to be sending MANPADS to Iran. We need to express, in no uncertain terms, China had better not do that.
You know -- you know, we certainly have the capability of blocking oil from the Strait of Hormuz going to China as well. So, again, we have plenty -- plenty of power --
RADDATZ:Senator --
JOHNSON:-- in the situation and we need to use it.
RADDATZ:Senator, I want to go back to you saying that President Trump had a good answer about what you say to Americans who are not a fan of the war. He did say they’re foolish.
Do you agree they’re foolish not to be fans of the war?
JOHNSON:No. No, the answer he gave that I agreed with is, we cannot allow Iran to become a nuclear power. They have missile technology. All they would have to do is park a barge in international waters off the shores of the U.S., lob one of those missiles, have a high-altitude nuclear blast, an EMP event, we could wipe out America's electrical grid. That would be an existential threat to America.
So, Iran represents an existential threat to America. That’s why Obama, Biden and Trump said, we can’t allow them to become a nuclear power. But they’re racing toward it.
You know, Martha, the -- if Iran didn’t want to be attacked, if they wanted to be left alone, all they had to do was say we’re not -- we’re not going to enrich uranium. We’ll allow inspectors in to make sure that we’re not doing it.
They -- because they didn’t allow that, because they allowed their economy to become devastated, just proves the point that they are -- they were absolutely dedicated to become a nuclear power and threaten and potentially destroy America. We had to take that threat seriously.
RADDATZ:But, Senator, they’re not doing that. They’re not stopping. The Strait is essentially closed. They still have that enriched uranium.
So, what do you do now? You, yourself, did not like the president threatening civilian power grids and structures. So, if the ceasefire fails, what do they go after? What do they do?
JOHNSON:Again, you keep degrading the Iranian regime. I think it’s interesting that you have Iranians actually calling in air strikes against some of their leadership. It’s remarkable the amount of destruction we’ve already brought to the Iranian regime without really harming that much civilian infrastructure.
So, again, I think we continue down that path. We make sure that we deter China and Russia from helping out Iran. We continue to weaken the regime until they are no longer effective and the Iranian people can reclaim their own liberty and take over Iran themselves.
Again, it could -- it’s going to be a long term project.
RADDATZ:And that could go on for a long time?
JOHNSON:I never thought this would be easy. I don’t think Trump thought it would be easy.
It could take a long time.
But, again, the threat was there. And the threat was growing. And at some point in time, we had to act before we no longer could. That’s why I supported President Trump when he made an incredibly difficult decision to finally act.
But now we have to finish the job. And that may take some time. And it could be complicated. And it could be risky.
There’s no guarantees here, but we could not allow Iran to become a nuclear power, threaten the region, threaten the world.
RADDATZ:OK, thank you very much for joining us this morning, Senator. Appreciate it.
JOHNSON:Have a good day.
RADDATZ:Let's bring in Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Foreign Relations Committee.
Good morning to you, Senator.
You saw these negotiations break down. J.D. Vance said they presented the final offer and then he went home. What is your reaction?
SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VIRGINIA:Well, Martha, we need to extend the ceasefire. We -- we shouldn't be in this war to begin with.
You know, what people need to realize is we had a diplomatic control over Iran not seeking a nuclear weapon that Donald Trump decided to tear up.
And we had an open Strait of Hormuz and reasonable gas prices up until February 27th, when Donald Trump launched this war without the support of allies, the American public, or Congress.
And so, the ceasefire, while it is not perfectly holding, we need to find a way to extend it past April 21st. Both parties, when they left the negotiation in Pakistan, said the door wasn't closed to additional negotiation. And so, even an imperfect ceasefire is better than resuming full war.
I'm going to force a vote on another war powers resolution in Congress this week in the Senate because returning to full war will just compound the suffering of American troops and the American citizenry, who are suffering under a very, very devastated economy because of what Donald Trump has done.
RADDATZ: You heard J.D. Vance, however, say it was a final offer. Whether he's open to talking to them again is something different than saying this is the final offer, we're welcome for you to come back and accept it or not.
The Iranians have stood firm. They walked away from here as well saying they would like to get closer to the American side. This seems like an absolute red line for President Trump.
KAINE: I'm not sure what President Trump's red lines are because they seem to change all the time. His rationale for the war has changed all the time. You know, the threat to bomb the entire civilization, and 90 minutes before that, okay, we're not going to bomb the entire civilization. And I don't know exactly what the offer was that J.D. Vance put on the table.
He had a brief press conference and he said, "We need to make sure that Iran doesn't get a nuclear weapon." But, Martha, as you know, Iran entered into an agreement with the United States and other nations, both allies of the U.S. and China and Russia in 2016, reaffirming that they would never purchase, seek, or acquire a nuclear weapon.
Donald Trump tore that up. He tore up the restrictions on uranium production. He tore up the restrictions on centrifuge production. And he tore up the deal that allowed intrusive inspections in Iran.
So, J.D. Vance says now that -- well, Iran won't agree to what they agreed to 10 years ago. I'm sure Iran wonders if we agree to it, will the United States tear it up again and bomb our civilian infrastructure and kill school children, and engage in an assassination campaign against our leadership.
This is not going to be an easy negotiation because the last negotiation that led to a control of Iran's nuclear program, the U.S. made the decision to tear it up and walk away from the deal.
I think that decision by President Trump to tear up a diplomatic deal will go down in history as one of the worst decisions in the foreign policy space ever made by an American president. If you make diplomacy impossible, you tend to make war inevitable.
RADDATZ: And the war itself, one of the things you just heard Senator Johnson talk about is what he said. Now, whether you know they tore up that or not, he said now they are -- Iran -- an existential threat.
Do you -- do not believe it's an existential threat or there was an imminent threat?
KAINE: There was no imminent threat. They are a regional threat. The regime is bad actors for sure.
The tragedy is the U.S. and Iran were friends in World War II. We were allies until the U.S. toppled the Iranian government in 1953. And since then, it's been back and forth between the U.S. and Iran for not -- not 47 years, but for 80 years. And if war was the answer, we would have found it before now.
They are a regional threat, but they pose no imminent threat to the United States. I'm on both the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees. I'm in the classified facility at the -- at the Capitol all the time. And there was zero evidence of an imminent threat to the homeland from Iran.
There was suggestion that if Israel attacked Iran, Iran might then turn its attention to U.S. forces in the region, our 40,000 permanent forces that we have. We could have -- we should have talked Israel out of attacking so as to minimize risk to our own forces. Instead, we accepted the notion that Israel would attack. But there was no imminent threat to the United States from Iran from a nuclear program, for their ballistic missile program, or for their other military activities.
That doesn't mean that they're a good guy. They're a regional threat, but they weren't a threat to the U.S. homeland.
RADDATZ: Senator, if we could just close on this, Trump has continued to blast NATO allies who are not supporting opening up the Strait of Hormuz. A president can't pull out of NATO, of course, but he could pull troops out.
Are you concerned about that?
KAINE: Yes. I mean, the president has been trashing NATO for years, long before he was president. And in this term, the tariffs that he has imposed on our allies, the language that he uses, calling Canada, a NATO ally, a 51st state, threatening the attack of Greenland, a part of Denmark, another NATO ally. He's really hurt NATO. And then he starts a war without consulting with them that has a huge effect on NATO allies' economy, and then gets mad that they won't join in.
I mean, it's like you don't -- you don't sucker punch somebody in a bar and then blame your buddies when they don't join the fight with you. I mean, the -- if the president wanted the support of allies, he should have valued allies and respected them rather than putting tariffs on their economies and trash-talking them.
RADDATZ: OK. I'm going to stop you there, and I appreciate you coming on this morning. Thanks so much, Senator.
When we come back, General Joseph Votel, the former CENTCOM commander, tells us what may be next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Operation Epic Fury was a historic and overwhelming victory on the battlefield. A capital V military victory. Together with our Israeli partners, America's military achieved every single objective. On plan, on schedule, exactly as laid out from day one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth this week declaring victory in the Iran war. But what has the U.S. achieved in its military aims?
For more on that, I'm joined now by former CENTCOM commander, General Joseph Votel.
It's great to see you, General Votel. So, no deal. What do you expect to happen now in the coming weeks?
GEN. JOSEPH VOTEL, FORMER CENTCOM COMMANDER: Yes, thanks, Martha. It's great to be with you.
Well, I think hopefully, what's going to happen is, well, behind the scenes, they'll continue works to try to get back into some type of negotiations. I think that's really, really important. And at the same time, I expect the U.S. military to continue to maintain its presence. Of course, we've -- we heard from Admiral Cooper yesterday that they have begun a very deliberate process to open a route through the Straits of Hormuz. And I would expect that they would continue to do that moving forward.
RADDATZ: And I want to talk about that in a minute, but I want to talk about the overall performance and what we have done so far. The military, of course, has done an incredible job with what they were tasked to do. But you have heard the president say, make threats
about civilian power grids, civilian sites, antiquities, things like that.
Would the military carry out those kinds of orders?
VOTEL:Well, I think that -- I think our military leaders have a process by which they evaluate targets to assess the military value of those, and if there are concerns, then we have the ability to raise that to our civilian leaders and express those types of concerns. You know, moreover, I think we have to be concerned about targeting those types of targets that would in turn cause Iran to target the similar type targets of our -- of our partners across the region.
So I think it's -- I think it's really important that we do very deliberate planning here. I expect the military is doing that and that we -- we focus on those things that are most critical to reducing Iran's ability to make war and to threaten the region.
RADDATZ:You heard Pete Hegseth say basically, the war is won. A military victory with a capital V.
Do you think the war has been won?
VOTEL:Well, I think -- I think we'll let the secretary's words speak for themselves. I mean, certainly watching what the CENTCOM forces have done over the last several weeks has been really impressive and there's been substantial dismantlement of Iran's war-making capability. It's not absolute. They're still have the ability to launch some missiles, some drones, and of course, they're still threatening in the Straits of Hormuz.
So, those are -- those are issues that will have to be either addressed through negotiations or through perhaps future military action. But certainly, the performance of our military forces has been substantial, and I think it's significantly reduced the war-making capability of the -- of the regime.
RADDATZ:But you would probably be the first to say those are tactical victories, and again, they have done an incredible job doing that. But, strategically, they haven't really reached their goal as we've seen here in Pakistan because of the nuclear material.
VOTEL:Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we have to -- this has -- certainly has to be evaluated by our civilian leaders in light of our strategic objectives and -- but what the military has done is largely move forward substantially against the military objectives that that were identified for them at the -- at the beginning of this.
But as we know, war is a -- is a political state here, and it involves more than just the military. It involves our diplomacy. It involves our economics. It involves the power of our information.
And so, all of those capabilities have to be brought to bear for us to, I think, you know, declare some end state.
RADDATZ:Pete Hegseth has also said if we don't get that nuclear material, our troops may go in and get it. Somehow, we'll go in and get it.
Talk about the difficulty of a mission like that.
VOTEL:Well, you know, there's -- there's a lot that our military can do, and without getting into a whole lot of details, you know, we certainly have the capacity to do this, but an operation of that nature well -- you know, well into Iran, would be significant.
We'd not only have to put, you know, the specialty troops on the ground that we required to operate in that environment. We'd have to secure them. We'd have to make sure over the top of them, we had air cover.
And then, of course, we'd have to be prepared to reinforce and sustain them for a period of time. This is likely not going to be something where we'll be able to go in and do in a period of darkness. It will take days and perhaps longer to -- you know, to get control of that.
And then we have to transport all of that material out of Iran to some safe location.
So, I think it's -- I think it's fair to say that that's a significant operation, and it will require a lot of resources and a lot of focus and a lot of time to accomplish.
RADDATZ:And back to the Strait if we can, those destroyers apparently went through yesterday. We're trying to clear out mines.
How successful can that be? How difficult would it be if Iran does not open that strait for us to do that?
VOTEL:Well, again, I think this is within the military capabilities of the -- of the -- of the -- of the United States. And I think what we saw yesterday is the -- is the first part of what would be a very deliberate effort to clear routes through the Straits of Hormuz that can be proved, and then hopefully build some confidence with commercial shippers to begin moving their -- begin moving their ships in and out of the -- in and out of the Gulf.
And that all takes time, and I think we're -- I think we're approaching this properly and very deliberately and making sure that we set the conditions for -- for success if that's what we have to do.
RADDATZ:Okay. Thanks, General Votel. It sounds very complicated. We appreciate you joining us this morning.
VOTEL:Thank you, Martha. Good to be with you.
And let's bring in our panel, the New Yorker's Susan Glasser, and NPR's Host, Mary Louise Kelly. And Susan, let me talk to you first.
Earlier this week, again, we heard Pete Hegseth declaring victory, saying Victory with a capital V, guided by the hand of God. You wrote this week, if this is victory, I would hate to see what failure looks like.
SUSAN GLASSER, NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER:Yeah, Martha. I mean, it's a really striking box to a certain extent of President Trump's own making. You have the specter of J.D. Vance flying all the way to Pakistan in order to negotiate, first and foremost, on the re-opening of the Strait of Hormuz, which, of course, was open before the conflict.
And in that sense, it's very hard to see the administration claiming this enormous victory when what they're negotiating over is to try to get the world, and the global economy is suffering as a direct result of this, back to the status quo ante. And right now, that seems like a very distant goal.
RADDATZ:And Mary Louise, do you think there's any chance of resurrecting these talks? You've heard that J.D. Vance basically said, take it or leave it. The Iranians said they'd like to get back together. Do you think that'll happen?
MARY LOUISE KELLY, NPR 'ALL THINGS CONSIDERED' CO-HOST:I certainly hope so. I mean, we certainly have to all be rooting for peace. This was round one of diplomacy in what we knew was going to be a really hard set of circumstances to produce a great big deal out of. So we still have until April 21st for the ceasefire to hold.
And what a ceasefire can do is create some space. The killing stops. Most of the fighting stops. We obviously, you know, there's still a lot of fire going in this ceasefire, but it hopefully creates some space for diplomacy to pick back up. But the challenge has been that they started so far apart. There was no trust.
And that's going to be a very high hurdle. If the starting point remains, you know, this 10-point plan that the Iranians put on the table that the U.S. correctly has said that we can't work with, and the Iranians feel emboldened, it's a very high mountain to climb. But there is still time.
RADDATZ:Susan, we've heard a lot about regime change. Obviously, a lot of senior leaders were killed, and you had negotiators here in Islamabad from Iran. Are they different than the regime before? What do you see in terms of regime change?
GLASSER:Yeah, I mean, this is a remarkable conversation even to be having in many respects, Martha. I mean, it's almost amazing to me that we have a situation where the president is claiming total regime change when what he's done is swap out one supreme leader named Khamenei for another supreme leader named Khamenei, except he's the son, younger and reportedly much more hardline than the father and, of course, also presumably embittered by the fact that the United States and his partner, Israel, have killed his father and other members of his family.
And so, you know, Iran's president, same leader it was before the war. You know, again, this is a theocracy that's been remarkably durable, and you know, it was a kind of asymmetric war in which survival of this government itself was a form of victory for Iran. And so, you know, it's not a claim that holds up to real argument.
And that's the tragedy for me, Martha, of this moment, is that the president started out saying to the people of Iran, help is on the way. Remember, there was the terrible mass killing of thousands of protesters at the beginning of 2026 that in some ways was the precipitating event here.
And yet there's a possibility, and I hope it doesn't come to that, where the people of Iran end up in a situation where their government may be even more entrenched as a result of this military conflict.
KELLY:If I could just jump on that, you have a situation where Iran has now proved to itself and the world it can stand up to the greatest military in the world, the most powerful military the world has ever seen, the United States, also the most powerful military in the region where, to your point, Susan, the regime may well feel emboldened, where Iran's regional proxies have been standing up or say that's what we're seeing on this other front in Lebanon.
And yes, their missile program has been set back. Yes, many Iranians have been killed. Yes, they have taken massive hits. But it is -- they've gained the leverage of the Strait of Hormuz, which they didn't have before, at least not in a proven way that will be both strategically and economically hugely helpful to Iran going forward.
RADDATZ:Mary Louise, I want to -- you and I have both been in Iran together. We have talked to the people. I want to go back to the people on the ground.
Do you see any potential for that population to have the ability to rise up at this point? As President Trump said he basically wants them to do.
KELLY: Look, one can be a journalist and be objective and also hope for Iranians to have the government that they deserve someday. A government in which Iranians are -- enjoy free speech. And that feels still a very long way away today.
You know, one of the tragedies of this is that it is hard to see that ordinary Iranians are not much farther away from being able to rise up than they were prior to February 28th and the start of this. And that -- and that the economy is going to be, you know, further in great difficulty as a result of this.
So, yes, that -- that is very challenging. We don’t have a reporter on the ground. I don’t think you have a reporter on the ground inside Iran at ABC. It’s very hard to know what is on people’s minds. But as our colleagues talk to people coming out at the borders in Turkey, at the borders in Iraq with Iran and describing what they see and what this experience has been like of these last few weeks, people are still terrified to speak and describing great fear for what will happen for their country and their families in the weeks ahead.
RADDATZ: And, Susan, we’re running out of time here, but I do want to have you close this about how you think this will end.
GLASSER: Yes. I mean, look, on some level, Donald Trump has already signaled that he’s probably not very interested in resuming full scale conflict here. The economic price, not only to the United States, but the global economy ratcheting up here. It might be the off ramp that he’s taken of the ceasefire.
I think the Iranians know that, though. That’s part of why you saw very little movement in those negotiations is because I think there’s been a very clear signal from Washington that Donald Trump may have reached the limits of his interest in conducting this conflict.
RADDATZ: A lot to watch in the coming weeks. Thanks to you both.
When we come back, we’ll throw it back to Washington and my co-anchor, Jonathan Karl.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RADDATZ:After a long day of talks here in Islamabad, Vice President Vance is now headed back to Washington, and we’re going to send it back to Washington, for the time being, to my co-anchor, Jon Karl.
KARL:Good morning, Martha.
Former Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy is joining our roundtable. We’ll talk about President Trump’s new threat just a few minutes ago to block any Iranian ships from coming through the Strait of Hormuz.
That and much more. We’re back in two minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES:The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today. The individuals lying about me are devoid of ethical standards, humility and respect. I’d never been friends with Epstein. Donald and I were invited to the same parties as Epstein from time to time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL:First Lady Melania Trump there this week with a surprise statement at the White House denying any relationship whatsoever with Jeffrey Epstein.
Let’s bring in the roundtable. Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile; SCOTUSBlog editor Sarah Isgur, the author of the excellent new book out Tuesday called “Last Branch Standing”; and former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy making his debut here on the roundtable.
So, look, let -- let’s start with what the news just out of -- out of Pakistan and out of -- out of the president. He’s now saying that he’s imposing a blockade on the Strait of Hormuz. Two lengthy statements on Truth Social, one saying, “At an appropriate moment, we are fully locked and loaded and our military will finish up the little that is left of Iran.”
So, Kevin, what -- what do you -- what do you make of this? Are we back to war or?
KEVIN MCCARTHY, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER:No, I don’t think we’re back to war. But I think this is very smart. If Iran thinks they can control the strait and people are just going to pay them, what President Trump is saying, “No, no ship gets out there. You’re not going to pay Iran.”
And for anyone who thinks -- look, I give J.D. credit. A negotiation like this isn’t going to solve on the first time. All great negotiations, you have to walk away. And every day, America is going to get stronger because for the first time now, our destroyers are in the strait taking the mines out. This is putting Iran in a weaker position.
The president is very clear. Ships won’t go through unless all ships go through.
And each day that we take the mines out, and that it shows America with J.D., you’re not going to have a nuclear weapon or we’re not having a deal. That’s very clear, the red line. If you want to get to a -- peace, this is what you have to do.
KARL:I mean, in fact, Sarah, their -- the Iranians were getting stuff through the Strait. They blocked everybody else and I'm told they had sold like a million barrels of oil since the -- since the war at a much higher price. So there have been -- I've seen serious people proposing this for weeks, the idea of cutting off the strait.
ISGUR:Yeah, I mean, look, I think when we look back on this moment, we will not talk about the individual war here or the individual choices about the Straits of Hormuz.
I think we will look back and see a quarter century of America trying to solve a problem of the Middle East and instead managing a problem in the Middle East. And that this war looks, once again, like an attempt to solve the problem by Donald Trump. He thought he could do it differently or better than his predecessors for the last 25 years. And here we are, and it looks a whole lot like where we started.
KARL:Donna, it was interesting seeing you had J.D. Vance, who had not really been a part of the, you know, central to the war effort, as far as we can tell, being sent on this mission to lead the delegation. Historic, by the way, this is the highest level talks between the Iranians and the Americans since 1979.
At the very moment that he came out to announce no deal, take a look at this split screen. We had the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, on the right there at the UFC Fight with the president, seeming to be enjoying the championship fight, while the vice president of the United States was announcing no deal.
What are the stakes here for J.D. Vance?
BRAZILE:Well, the stakes are very high, clearly, because J.D. is the Vice President, is known as someone who is a peacemaker. He's not for these so-called forever wars in the Middle East and elsewhere.
I thought it was like a dog sniffing exercise where, you know, you finally got a chance to, you know, take a look at the other side and to begin to put all of the cards on the table. I agree. I think this is round one.
What am I watching right now? I'm watching some of the other key indicators, the United States military. Will we resume bombing? I'm watching Israel. Will they resume bombing in Iran? I'm also watching, you know, what happens with this blockade? Will the United States finally get some of our Gulf allies and European allies to join us?
And of course, I'm watching what happens on Tuesday when Israel sits down with Lebanon. Will they begin to figure out --
KARL:Yeah.
BRAZILE:-- how to stop the war? But no, this was a dog sniffing exercise where you size up the other side and then hopefully, you go back to the table and begin some serious negotiations.
KARL:There's a lot of sniffing. This was a very long meeting. It went on --
BRAZILE:21 hours.
KARL:-- it was an all-nighter. But Kevin, you said something interesting right before we came on the air here, that Trump loves that image of him being at the UFC Fight while, you know, the talks are underway. Explain that.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCARTHY:This is where I think people misinterpret the president. He's communicating directly to Iran. When he says the things he does in the tweets, they're not for you or I, they're to them. So he's telling them they're not getting through.
What he was telling Iran and those negotiators right then, I don't have to have a deal. I'm very comfortable. And where is he? He's in a fight match that's tough, that he shows people can win, and he's got Marco right next to him.
If that's part of the negotiation, that gives America a stronger hand. If you're Iran and you're thinking that this guy doesn't care, this guy is tough, this guy is going to shut down what money or oil we're getting, and now they're taking the mines out and we don't have a navy to replace them, maybe I should negotiate.
And if J.D. said no nuclear weapons and he's willing to walk away, that's a really strong hand.
(CROSSTALK)
KARL:But he doesn't want this, I mean, but the bottom line is the military is fully still present in the Persian Gulf.
MCCARTHY:Exactly, that puts a fear on Iran.
KARL:But I mean, are we going to be back in a war? Is the ceasefire going to be over, or is this --
MCCARTHY:That's the point.
(CROSSTALK)
KARL:I think this is -- part of the negotiation is to end it. You've got to --
MCCARTHY:Yes.
KARL:-- show all your --
MCCARTHY:The fear of the military is almost greater than when you use it, because if we wipe everything out, they have no more fear.
KARL:Yeah.
MCCARTHY:He's showing greater strength that they can't have money now, they can't control the Strait, and you can't have a nuclear weapon. You should pick peace.
BRAZILE:But beyond symbolism --
MCCARTHY:Yes.
BRAZILE:-- which I understand, you got -- the American people are tired and frustrated with this war. They're tired of the gas prices, they're tired of the uncertainty. So there's some domestic risk that the president has to also take into consideration.
He needs an off-ramp, he needs to figure out what constitutes victory so that the American people -- we're proud of the military, but the American people want to see some ending results and a strategy going forward.
ISGUR:But this is exactly why your point was so spot on. Iran knows that Trump has a domestic problem with this war and with gas prices. He needed to communicate to them that he was not going to cave, he was not in a weaker position here, and he's, as you said, quite comfortable with his domestic position.
KARL:It was also wild to see him go after Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Megyn Kelly and --
(CROSSTALK)
ISGUR:Well, it's a day in the life, Jon.
BRAZILE: Alex Jones. Whoop.
KARL: So, I want to quickly touch on the other extraordinary statement. Melania Trump comes out suddenly with no warning and talks about Epstein. I'm told the White House -- nobody in the West Wing had any idea that she was going to do this. The president himself told "The New York Times" he didn't know that she was going to do this.
ISGUR: Welcome to being a campaign operative. Anyone who has done this for a living is very familiar with the spouse who sits on Twitter and sees random accounts saying negative things that they don't think are true and says, I want to go out and defend this. And you're like, no, ma'am, we are not doing that. That would step on the message, et cetera, et cetera.
What you saw was the team lose. You know, if the Streisand effect is when you file a lawsuit that brings more attention to something, the Melania effect is when finally Epstein is out of the news.
KARL: Well --
ISGUR: You have an entire war in the Middle East, and you're like, no, no, please, let's talk more about Epstein.
KARL: It had finally faded away. I mean, at least from -- and now we're told search engine, you know, search traffic online spiked --
ISGUR: As we talk about all of the e-mails that she sent that are in the file. I mean, this is the worst possible decision.
BRAZILE: And I think that's precisely why the first lady decided that it was time for her to clear the air, to put her language out there. For example, in 1998, she met the president with another friend at the Kit Kat Club. She wanted to put her story out in her own voice, and she also said something I thought was very important. She said, please allow the survivors to come under oath and testify and tell their story. So I thought it was good on her part to get out there and clean the air.
KARL: We don't have much time left, but I wanted -- the allegations against Eric Swalwell, which have not been independently confirmed by ABC. He's denied them all. But serious sexual misconduct allegations. And now you have a, you know, an army of Democrats abandoning his campaign for governor. He was the leading candidate, Democratic candidate, for governor. And now he's facing calls to drop out from people like Nancy Pelosi.
MCCARTHY: Listen, let me be very clear. I tried to get rid of Swalwell six, eight years ago. When I got the briefing, when I became leader with the FBI.
KARL: Yes.
MCCARTHY: Nancy Pelosi was in the room. I turned to her and said, how can you keep her on intel? Intel is a select committee that only the leaders put on, that you know all the secrets that the members do not. But I made a motion.
KARL: But this is about sexual misconduct allegations or?
MCCARTHY: It was a combination with the Chinese spy and led to all that. Every member in Congress knows not to let any young staffer get around Swalwell or Matt Gaetz. It's not a secret there. There's a reason why you didn't want those two people around. He was the leading candidate for governor. He probably could have won the primary and gotten there. But this all came forward. And these young women deserve justice.
BRAZILE: I agree.
KARL: Donna, should he drop out?
BRAZILE: His campaign is in a free fall right now, with top staffers leaving. And let me just say this, as someone who knows at least one of the victims that have come forward, I'm very concerned.
KARL: Thank you, Donna.
Up next, a look at the remarkable Artemis II mission, and we'll send it back to Martha in Islamabad. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:Integrity splashed down. Sending post-landing command now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:Splashdown confirmed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:Copy splashdown, waiting on DLDR (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:Splashdown confirmed at 7:07 p.m. Central Time, 5:07 p.m. Pacific Time.
From the pages of Jules Verne to a modern-day mission to the moon, a new chapter of the exploration of our celestial neighbor is complete. Integrity's astronauts back on Earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ:That was the moment when the Artemis II crew returned home to Earth after their historic journey around the moon. While we are here on Earth amid divisions and attempts to end a war, we saw remarkable images this week of the beauty of our planet and the moments that bring us together.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:And lift off. The crew of Artemis II now bound for the moon.
RADDATZ (voice-over):In a triumph of human achievement, the 10-day Artemis II mission shattered a 56-year-old record for the farthest distance from Earth ever traveled by humans. Those astronauts splashing down safely back at home Friday night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:Splashdown confirmed.
RADDATZ (voice-over):During their historic flyby of the far side of the moon and capturing those stunning images of our planet in the distance, the crew shared a poignant moment captivating all of us back on Earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:A number of years ago, we started this journey in our close-knit astronaut family, and we lost a loved one.
RADDATZ (voice-over):That loved one, the late wife of Mission Commander, Reid Wiseman, Carroll, who died in 2020 of cancer, leaving Wiseman to raise their two daughters. The Artemis II team suggesting they name one of the craters of the moon after Carroll.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:It's a bright spot on the moon. And we would like to call it "Carroll" and you spell that C-A-R-R-O-L-L.
RADDATZ (voice-over):The four astronauts sharing a long, emotional embrace. Artemis bringing humanity together to marvel at our closest celestial neighbor and serving as a reminder of what we can do on Earth when we are focused on exploration rather than division.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ (on camera):Beautiful. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RADDATZ:And that's all for us today from Islamabad. Stay tuned to ABC News for the latest on the war in Iran. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Be sure to catch "World News Tonight" and have a great day.
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